Philosophy and Theology Intersections

From: jimruttshow8596

This article explores the intersections of philosophy and theology, particularly focusing on the Christian Trinity, relational ontology, and the nature of belief. The discussion features Jordan Hall, a thinker and essayist, in conversation with Jim Rut, a self-proclaimed “scoffer” with respect to revealed religion [03:18:22].

The Logical Necessity of the Christian God

Jordan Hall posits that if the Trinity is understood correctly, the Christian God becomes logically necessary for any possible world [02:05:08]. He further elaborates that this necessity extends to incorporate all multiverses [02:43:08]. Jim Rut, while skeptical, acknowledges Hall’s intelligence and readiness to engage with the argument [02:28:40].

Core Arguments: A Triadic Structure

The discussion is structured into three main arguments:

1. A triadic structure in general, specifically relational ontology, as the ontological primitive [07:42:45].
2. The Christian Trinity as this particular triadic structure [09:06:06].
3. The nature of belief as an existential commitment rather than a strictly mental operation [09:51:52].

Relational Ontology as Ontological Primitive

Hall argues that a triadic structure, fundamentally relational, is the “bootloader” for all conceptual and ontological characters [07:52:54]. He distinguishes this from substance ontology, suggesting that a move to relational ontology resolves philosophical problems [08:56:09].

Hierarchy of Concepts Hall introduces the idea of a hierarchical stack of concepts, where a deeper concept is necessarily implied by another [12:12:15]. For example, velocity imports concepts of position, change, and time [12:29:10]. At the most fundamental level, he seeks an onto-epistemological event that precedes the split between ontology and epistemology [13:07:07].

Fundamental concepts include:

• Being and becoming (change) [13:30:19]
• Unity and multiplicity (sameness and difference) [13:49:17]
• Continuity and symmetry [13:58:34]
• Reality (the relationship between subject and object, not strictly mapped to the object) [14:06:20]

Jim Rut counters with a complexity science lens, emphasizing that understanding the world requires understanding both “the dancer and the dance” [14:40:53]. Objects (dancers) and relationships (the dance) are intimately interconnected [15:10:04]. Rut also suggests that time and space might be more fundamental in our universe than abstract concepts like unity and multiplicity [16:11:06].

Relationship as Primary Hall contends that the concept of relationship, as an ontology, implicitly and necessarily contains the relata (the things in relationship) [25:15:33]. He argues that conventional thinking assumes objects exist separately and then enter into relationships [26:23:02]. Materialism, for example, arises from an implicit substance ontology where an object absent relationship is plausible [26:49:12]. In contrast, Hall asserts that the notion of relationship cannot be conceived without already including relata [28:03:19].

“The thing that is in relationship is not yet embodied in any particular way when I think about relationship, but relationship invokes intrinsically, in other words, includes within itself its actual essence as as a concept relata” [28:15:28].

Rut questions if this is merely a semantic distinction, suggesting that objects are relational and relational implies objects, seeing no useful distinction [28:33:14]. He references Russell and Whitehead, who he believes would argue that substance and relation must coexist, and one cannot be prior to the other [36:04:00].

The Christian Trinity as an Onto-Triadic Structure

Hall moves from the philosophical to the theological, stating that the Christian Trinity, specifically, exemplifies the compact set of ontological primitives discussed [39:09:11]:

• Unity: The Godhead or the Oneness of God [37:45:10].
• Multiplicity: The three persons or hypostases [37:53:14].
• Relationality: The intrinsic characteristic of the relationships between and among the persons [37:59:15].

Hall provides the example of a three-person marriage to illustrate these concepts [41:15:16]: the marriage itself is the unity, the three people are the multiplicity, and their complex interactions form the relationality [41:51:51]. The “body of the marriage” is purely relationality [42:42:07].

He asserts that all such structures in reality are ultimately derivatives of the most basic version, the Trinity, which he controversially calls the “platonic form” of that characteristic [44:50:07].

The Persons of the Trinity Hall explains the persons of the Trinity in conceptual terms, moving away from literal anthropomorphic interpretations:

• The Father (First Person): Begets the Son and the Spirit proceeds from the Father [01:09:30]. The Father’s essence is found in the relationship between the Son and the Spirit [01:09:50]. “Begotten” relates to difference with continuity, like lineage [01:10:12]. “Proceeds” relates to discontinuity or symmetry, where different elements are held in a larger wholeness [01:10:51].
• The Son (Second Person / Logos): All forms of logos (narrative, incarnation, relationship between the transcendent and created) participate in and embody the second person [01:46:16]. This includes the evolving universe, where complexity increases over time through inherent natural laws and emergent phenomena [01:52:05]. The second person of the Trinity subtends things that have top-down constraints, transcending the domain under investigation [01:54:16].
• The Holy Spirit (Third Person): The Spirit is the relationship of the Father and the Son [01:12:55]. It enables both distinction and unity, showing how objects emerge through distinction and communion [01:13:06].

Hall concludes that these characteristics of the Trinity — unity, multiplicity, relationality, continuity, lineage, and creation — represent the logical base for reality [01:44:40]. Any conceivable “world” must contain these components [01:05:20].

The Nature of Belief: Faith as Existential Commitment

Hall challenges the conventional understanding of belief as a “nominalist set” or fixation on particular words [02:26:25] (akin to Wittgenstein’s language games [02:26:36]). Instead, he defines belief as an existential commitment, a “livingness” in reality [02:28:16].

Pistis (Faith) vs. Doxa (Opinion) vs. Episteme (Knowledge) Drawing from Plato’s use of “pistis,” Hall explains:

• Doxa (Opinion): Nonsensical or superficial understanding [01:36:26]. Jim Rut equates traditional religion to this, seeing it as an engine for producing opinions or a mechanism of control [01:34:00].
• Episteme (Knowledge): Perception of underlying principles, grounding in Platonic forms [01:37:09].
• Pistis (Faith): Embodied, deeply intimate relationship with a domain of reality gained through engaged experience [01:38:18]. This is mastery (e.g., a surfer or musician’s embodied understanding beyond words) [01:38:46].

Hall argues that when Paul used “pistis,” he meant this capacity for a well-honed, harmonious, rich, nuanced, subtle, intimate relationship [01:38:59]. Thus, “faith” is living deeply with reality, cultivating the capacity to navigate life well, sitting on deep confidence and existential commitment [01:39:44].

Reconciling Philosophy, Science, and Theology

Hall contends that the philosophical concepts he outlines provide a deeper substrate for disciplines like physics and logic [01:25:21]. He suggests that the “isness” of reality’s propensity for observation and theoretical coordination is an aspect of the Logos [01:02:05].

From a physicist’s perspective, Jim Rut describes the universe’s origin (Big Bang) and the unfolding of laws leading to increasing complexity [01:57:18]. This narrative of emergence, where physics sets pruning rules for higher levels of organization (e.g., biochemistry, life, consciousness), does not violate physics but adds new dimensions of reality [01:17:11].

Hall integrates this by stating that the logos encompasses both natural laws and human language, representing any element of creation with these characteristics [01:54:54]. He points out that current science does not explain why the laws of physics are as they are [01:00:26], suggesting this lies in a more fundamental domain, which theology addresses [01:23:02].

“Theology is the discipline of reality” [01:23:25].

Regarding biblical literalism, Hall views it as a relatively recent historical movement that emerged in reaction to 19th-century European critique, creating “harbors in the storm” for ordinary Christians [01:57:56]. He critiques its presupposition that scripture should be understood as journalism or science [01:58:49], instead asserting that scripture is “radically deeper” [01:59:18]. Rut agrees, suggesting sacred texts are more akin to great fiction, providing insights into human existence though not literally true [01:59:32].

Hall concludes that Christianity, when properly understood, is not an ideology but an invitation to cultivate a deeply embodied, intimate relationship with the whole of reality [01:44:47]. This relationship is personal, akin to an “I-Thou” relationship with reality itself [01:45:34].

Jim Rut’s Summary of Disagreement

Jim Rut summarizes his position:

1. He remains unconvinced of the primacy of ontological relationality, believing that relationality and object philosophy are co-existent [02:08:36].
2. While the universe’s nature can be mapped to the labels of the Trinity, he sees this as mere nominalism or analogy, adding no new information [02:09:07].
3. His definition of “faith” as engaged living does not logically lead to the existence of the Christian God as literally described in the Bible [02:09:13].

Despite the philosophical differences, both participants expressed enjoyment and intellectual stimulation from the deep dive into these concepts [02:09:52].